dana was currently an Assistant Professor at Kent State University at the time of this interview.

1. Please describe an experience that helped cultivate your interest in cognitive science/psychology.

 I was an undergrad and I thought I wanted to be a school psychologist. I took this class, Psychology of Learning, and we were learning not just about theories of learning, but also just how people learn and how behavior changes. I thought, wow, this is the coolest thing I've ever heard of. How can I learn more? And then I met with my professor, Dr. Vinny Prohaska, and said, this is the coolest thing I've ever heard of. Like, people learn, and people know how we learn and there are experiments to see how people learn better. I asked how can we use cognitive science to leverage how people learn in classrooms? And he said, actually, Dana, there's a whole field of people who do this work, including me. So I started working in his lab as an undergraduate. We did a number of studies and the first I actually have adopted this in my own teaching. He gives a quiz every class. So you do the reading and you take a quiz- the testing effect. You take your quiz and you'll see those questions again on the exam. And you know, at the time I didn't believe him that it would improve performance. He said “for however number of years I've been doing it, students always do better on the exams”. I was like, yeah, that sounds weird. But I started doing it in my own classes teaching and realized, oh wow, the semesters I have done this, students tend to perform better. We did some of that work. looking at what he's seen. What was unique about his work is that I went to a Hispanic serving institution, over half of the students were Latino or Latinx and also first gen low income. Replicating some of that work in that population was super important too, because as we know, psychology isn't very diverse and our samples are not representative of the world. We did some work around that for the testing effect. And he would also assign group quizzes sometimes. We were finding really cool things. Sometimes group quizzes don't work out as well as you'd hope. So he decided, okay, we're not going to do that anymore in my class. It was my first introduction that people were using psychology, not just to test or examine rat behavior, which I think is really cool, but just wasn't my jam. Learning just how we can really apply psychology to solve real world problems was really interesting to me.

2. What is the focus of your research?

The way I usually talk about my research is I'm interested in is why some kids really struggle with math and for other kids math comes seemingly easy? I've looked at it in a number of ways. The first main way has been using these national representative data sets to look at what are early predictors of math achievement. From kindergarten to third grade usually is my focus and the more work I've done in that area, the more I realize, the skills you come in with to kindergarten are the skills that matter most. Also, executive functions tends to be a pretty strong predictor. Going from looking at these many variables and seeing what's predictive, I started focusing on knowledge and executive functions in the context of math. We started to think about what are the theoretical, underpinnings of these relations between executive functioning and math? What do executive functions do for people, when learning math? I do some work testing theories using large data sets, but also using experimental designs to test theories and I'm hoping some of this work will inform the way we design learning materials, particularly for students who may have executive function challenges. I use that word very intentionally because sometimes they may not have a diagnosis for ADHD, but they do struggle with attention or they may have other sensory challenges. So how do we use those studies to inform how we design learning materials for students, especially, what we've seen after lockdown during the pandemic? A lot of students are struggling with paying attention and being motivated to sit in front of our screen if they have to. I'm hoping a lot of that work will inform the way we design learning materials. And some of my work has done a little bit of that already, such as redesigning worked examples, to have signaling cues or attention focusing cues where you draw boxes around certain aspects of the problem to encourage a student to attend to certain features of a problem. The thing about that work, and I haven't connected it cleanly yet, so I haven't even controlled for aspects of executive function skill, which is very difficult to assess in many children at once in a classroom. So, I'm hoping at some point we'll have an idea of how to better do that work. The thing I find interesting about my work is that it's kind of one thing feeds into the other. They're related lines of research, one's informing the other while we're doing both kinds of work.

But also, in another line of research, I wondered how are we even defining executive function? And is it even real? That is, are we measuring it in a way that makes sense? And do, do these things demonstrate consistently across populations? So I find myself now more interested in this definition of executive function, measurement of executive functions, and taking context into account when we're thinking about how to measure it, particularly in minoritized populations.

3. What aspects of your work do people get really excited about?

It's all exciting, but what do other people find most exciting? I would say people reach out to me most about this context of executive functions or executive functions, potentially being problematic. I've gotten a lot of attention for this work, which I didn't expect, I guess. I thought the work would be controversial when I first started writing about it and I was like, oh, people seem to really like this. I think that people find that work really interesting. In that line of work, I argue that a lot of people put a lot of effort into executive function training. We see many people trying to figure out how we train executive functions. And some of my work argues that I think this is the wrong question. I wonder how are we defining it? If executive functions truly are this thing that's a guiding and directing our goals, then those goals are going be different for a kid who grew up in the South Bronx with lots of noise pollution and sound pollution and having to worry about a host of things versus a kid where those things would never even cross their mind. So what are we training kids to do if we are training executive functions? Are we training them to be more like a prototypical white middle class child? Or are we training them to go be in service of their own goals? I think that statement, people have said they felt an emotional connection to it. I also argue that we have a ton of research suggesting that we can support cognitive capacities with worked examples being one. I always go back to that cause that's my jam also. We don't have a ton of support for executive function training so why do we keep worrying so much about executive function training where, you know, maybe we don't need to train the thing, maybe we need to support the thing, and so we have evidence to support the thing. Let's just do that. I can go on for days about that because it's exciting, but I think other people find it exciting too.

4. What contributions do you hope your work will have to the field?

I guess looking ahead 30 years from now, I hope that my work encourages people to see Black children as more than a problem to be solved because I think that some of my issues with the work that I read and, to be clear, a lot of it's it is well-intentioned.  We live in a society that is inequitable by design, unfortunately. And so there are winners and losers. And I think that so much of the work that I read is just like, well, how do we fix these kids? Essentially, that's what it is, right? How do we fix these kids? I hope that my work encourages people to stop thinking about us as a problem to be solved. And think of it more as how do we make context or learning environments safe spaces for Black children to feel like they can learn and grow and be who they want to be and not to be similar to a white child, a white, prototypical, middle class white child?

5. Do you see yourself in industry or academics moving forward?

So I did a year in nonprofit, actually. I was a postdoc at the University of Pittsburgh for two years. I had gone on the job market and said, ugh, this stinks. I don't want to do this again. This is soul sucking. Let's do something new for a few years. I think the work that this particular nonprofit did was really cool in the sense that it was academics, it was people in the industry, it was policy makers, and it was teachers. It was so many people from different fields. I felt like that model was useful because if we are going to make any progress to solve any of social problems, it's going to be having people from different areas, the teachers who are on the ground, who see these problems of day-to-day. I remember talking to teachers about executive function research and they're like, first of all, what the heck is an executive function? And second of all, why should I care about this? and I, I thought that was really cool. The reason I came back to academia was because I love doing my own research and leading a lab and I missed students. Students are the thing that keeps me going when I get a grant rejection or a paper rejection because I also have this person who's really motivated and excited to find out what our poster found so we can present it next week.  The world may change by tomorrow, but I think that if I were to leave academia, go into industry or nonprofit, I would want to be in a place where there are people like trained economists and trained like policy people and people from very different fields collaborating to do research. I think that I love that model. I think that that's how we're really going to solve problems if people are just coming in from completely different fields. Cognitive scientists are so behind in talking about race and social problems and how social problems impact our cognition so having conversations with people outside of cognitive science has been the most encouraging. There are things we can actually do differently than we've been doing all this time.

6. What's it like being a person of color in cognitive science?

It's interesting to say the least. People are usually pretty encouraging for the most part and they want to know more about me and my work, which is nice. I will be honest. I think that cognitive science has a long way to go. If we're thinking about panels and there's only like five of us that you can think of to invite then it's like, what is going on? I think in that sense, it's a little of a lonely space because there aren't many of us. If there are people I want to talk to about my work I have to really search. There's a lot of compromises you have to make such maybe I won't look for another Black person. I'll look for someone who just shares my orientation toward the world but then the investment's a little different. So much of my work is encouraged by or influenced by my experiences growing up in New York City from working class household and being first gen. And then the students I worked with when I was in youth development a lot of them were first gen families who didn't speak English, families who worked multiple jobs. So I think the investment for me feels a little different in that I know these people, they're not just data points to me. These are real people. And then like the things that we say about children, or the interpretations of the data that we make is further isolating. It's even further isolating when I hear people make interpretations of data that are just upsetting; would you say that to this person? Would you come back and say “Hey, we collected data on you and your community. This is what we found, and you all are actually not that bright.” You wouldn't say that to them. So maybe we shouldn't say this on paper.

As a graduate student, I had super supportive mentors. They cared and wanted to make sure I had funding throughout my whole time in grad school. There was a period where I lost my funding and I had a mentor who was just like, I have a grant, come work on the grant and that's how you're going to finish. I feel like people really invested in me because they knew that if I didn't have funding, that was it. I had people who took me under their wing when they didn't know anything about me other than, okay, there's a student who cares about how kids learn. I also had mentors who just decided they would take me under their wing and have kind of been like a sponsor. I've heard people use this dichotomy of a mentor versus a sponsor, someone who uses their power to ensure that your name is said in the right rooms. I was invited to a grant panel at NSF years ago, and I'm pretty sure I know who put my name in that for that. I feel like I've had people who genuinely invested in me. But I think as a grad student, some of that was because I had to get outside my comfort zone and just show up in spaces that I probably would not have felt comfortable showing up in and going to conferences and introducing myself to people outside my department. That's scary, especially when you're not socialized to do that. To put yourself out there, especially when you know that you're one of few who look like you. I'm like literally putting myself in a situation to potentially experience a microaggression or something, which has happened unfortunately.

7. How do you protect your time and energy?

I say no to a lot of things, which is my secret weapon. I have a punch card and when I say no 10 times, I get to buy myself a new office plant. I remind myself that if I say yes to something, I'm saying no to something else because there's only a certain amount of time I have to do the things right and also have energy to run after a two year old at the end of the day. I think the thing about protecting my peace or guarding my spirit as my colleague, Dr. Angela Neal Barnett, likes to say, is being around people who I trust and have built trusting relationships with, finding community. I think especially when you start a tenure track job, I think you're competing against a clock where you're like setting up your lab and teaching with classes and like doing the things and then you don't have time. You look around and it's November and it's like, oh, I haven't met anybody. I think prioritizing those things, especially in a new space, even if it's people outside your department because in cognitive sciences, you're not going to likely find other folks of color or first gen folks. You have to look outside your department to find those people. Setting up coffee with those folks, meeting people outside of academia and as hard as it is, go find a Zumba class or something. Don't tell anyone you have a PhD. You're Dana and you just moved here from wherever and you're just here today. I think the reminders like there's life outside of this is super important especially when you have a day where or a week where it's just like rejection after rejection. It's so hard not to internalize that and say, oh, I'm bad at what I do, or I just, I think I should go look for something else to do. As a graduate student, my outlet was working out. I went to the gym every day without fail. Even if I had the harshest feedback ever from a mentor, at least I know I hit a new record for myself at the gym. Even if I didn't write 200 words during my writing session today, I did 10,000 steps and that's a win. Both of those things can exist. I also sleep a lot. My son goes down at 7:30 and then I'm like, all right, well, time to get ready for bed. The only time I will do work after that is if I have a deadline. Two of my mentors have said this, both men of color, actually have said they don't work on the weekends or evenings. That is also how they protect their time. If it's not going to fit within the eight hours of me being at work then I have to say no to it because I do not work after 5:00. And I think when you have a kid, it's especially important. I also make sure I nap on the weekends. When my son goes for his nap, I'm like, okay, I'm going to go take my weekend nap now.

 One of my good friends she always says her motto is work hard but play harder. I try to incorporate that into my life too. I did work hard today, so guess what? I'm not doing anything. And I might go buy myself some lavish meal and enjoy it or plan a vacation or other things like that.

8. Do you see spaces where diversity will change how/what questions cognitive psychology/cog Science is asking?

I think that I am by asking that question what is the goal of executive function training and assessment? Is it to teach kids to be in service for their own goals, or is it teach to teach them to be more like a compliant white middle class child? I keep seeing these things pop up and I keep seeing them target minoritized groups. And I have to ask first off, why, why us? And second, what's the goal? When I have asked that, I think a lot of people had reached out to me and said that question really changed their orientation toward this work, but it didn't feel like a weird question to me. I've been hearing my sociologist friends and my higher ed friends asking these same questions. I think it doesn't just come from me being a person of color, but also just being connected with folks from other disciplines who have been doing this work longer than we have.

The other question that I think is coming up a little bit that I see people doing a lot more with is this context question. We see cognitive science as we're doing real science because we're doing experiments and we're isolating all of these effects to really figure out what is changing behavior. But each of us are packed with experiences and orientations toward the world and how we respond to different things. How can we not take into account the people the person who's sitting in front of the screen and then also the four walls or the people conducting the assessment?  I think about even some of these teacher rating questions that we use for executive functions. We know that teacher ratings are pretty biased. Why wouldn't researcher ratings be biased? I like that people are now asking these questions, especially in the context of race and racial differences in our assessments, because my hope is that it won't be a situation where we're just like, oh, everyone performs this way on a task, or everyone does this thing. Instead, we see that a segment of the population does Y when we do X, but these other folks over here do this. And there's nothing wrong with the way they do this. It's just different because we are beings that are within a sociopolitical context that needs to be taken into account. I would encourage folks to read, Dr. Ayanna Thomas’s recent paper on color invasive cognition. because I think she really highlights perfectly that the founding of our field comes, unfortunately, from really unfortunate and disgusting roots, and it affects everything that we do and how we study things.

9. Do you have any words of advice for aspiring researchers of color?

The first thing I would say is identifying good mentors and good sponsors. I think that sometimes we delude ourselves into thinking that it's just hard work and our ideas are good they will get noticed, and that's not true. The unfortunate thing is, and I will say my experience has been there are times, people attribute my ideas to other people. I have a joke that if my friend is on a paper as the last author, someone will attribute it to him.  People have attributed my work to other people, to white men. I think you have to understand that, yes, everyone works hard, we all work hard. Yes, we all have different challenges and hurdles and so you have to balance that hard work with also being very strategic. Identifying a really great mentor, one that won't always say what you want to hear but will give you really solid feedback on your work. Find a mentor who is generous and will give you great feedback but also recognizes that you're in a unique position. Someone who is generous with their time and will use their power and privilege to elevate your name in spaces when you're not there. Having those two I think has been so key for me. Also, there's a great book called The Black Academic’s Guide to Gaining Tenure Without Losing Your Soul. I think it's a great book to read even if you don't plan on going to academia because anyone can benefit from this book. In fact, a good friend of mine who was a white woman gifted me this book. She told me she read this book because she wanted to be a better ally. I think everyone can benefit from this book. It's particularly beneficial for people of color in academia, especially Black people in academia. This book is great not just because it gives you insights on just how to structure your time as an academic, how not to let teaching take over your life, how not to let service take over your life, but also just how to be strategic with managing conflict. The reality is people are going to say some weird stuff sometimes in meetings. You can't fight every battle. It's just not realistic. Learning how to manage those conflicts can be useful before you even get on the tenure track. I think it's the very last section of the book, and I think everyone should read that section because as a grad student I would just remember going home, feeling angry about things I would hear in class and this book shows that there's a way to handle this anger and how to use it. The book really effectively articulates how to manage those situations.